Curse

Rick Thene · Dec 08, 2008, 02:34 AM // 02:34

I wouldn't mind if Sins were changed from instagib to an uber melee ranged shutdown class for GW2. Gods, they would need a name change though.
Bobby is completely right that stealth and in-battle teleportation is brutal to a games balance.
Now, if Shadowsteps were half range, required LoS and were tied to Critical Strikes...
...they would be at least a bit more balanced.

petrorabbit · Dec 08, 2008, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Thene

Bobby is completely right that stealth and in-battle teleportation is brutal to a games balance.

WoW has been doing fine with stealth and game balance. The thought of stealth ruining PvP is more exaggerated than it actually is. Of course, constant funding and time for development always helps.

moriz · Dec 08, 2008, 03:21 AM // 03:21

and WoW doesn't have the best pvp in the rpg genre; guild wars does.

coincidence? i think not.

petrorabbit · Dec 08, 2008, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Well, if you are talking about balance, Both games still need work. WoW still has some balancing issues with the release of Wrath of the Lich King, and GW has issues since the release of Factions. Both games have been given time so they have improved a lot.

If you are talking about better in terms of sheer volume of players, then It would be safe to say, WoW definately has more in volume players. I still have yet to see mainstream advertising for GW. Of course, that does not mean its better, just has had mainstream success.

If you are talking about better as in quality of players, lets just say, most of the players are terrible in each game with a small percentage of good players.

In terms of monetary rewards. I do know WoW does have lucrative tournaments for the top PvP'ers for offline and online tournaments. I also do know that PvP teams also have the opportunity for sponsorships and will get their trips paid for to places all over the US, Europe, and even Asia just to compete in these tournaments.

I am currently unaware if top pvp GW players have those same kind of things. If so, please enlighten me.

Either way, do you currently play WoW or at least keep up with it via friends, or read online? If not, then can you really compare them fairly and unbiasedly when your current experience is only with GW.

Either way, i'll end it here. I only wanted to make a point that stealth is not currently ruining PvP to the game implied, which is WoW. And that time and development is really the only way to balance a game.

snaek · Dec 08, 2008, 04:48 AM // 04:48

stealth and teleport skills do not imbalance the game
improperly thought out stealth and teleport skills imbalance the game

melee-class dmg > ranged-class dmg
so they buff melee-class dmg even moar so by giving them range?
rite...that makes plenty of sense

imo shadowstep qq should belong wit rspike qq

many suggestions have already been made on how to balance shadowsteps
but lets not turn this thread into another shadowstepping one
or another izzy bashing one

@petrorabbit
dun say wow has better pvp jus cuz its more popular and blizzard has more money to spend on prizes
thats like saying dead of alive has a better fighting system then virtua fighter

petrorabbit · Dec 08, 2008, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

@petrorabbit
dun say wow has better pvp jus cuz its more popular and blizzard has more money to spend on prizes
thats like saying dead of alive has a better fighting system then virtua fighter

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

snip...

Of course, that does not mean its better, just has had mainstream success.

Never said WoW has better PvP. I believe they both have problems. And both systems are good depending on what you look for in a game. It still does not mean that because you don't enjoy/play one, that the other is inferior, especially when you've only seen one side of the coin.

Lyynyyrd · Dec 08, 2008, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

and WoW doesn't have the best pvp in the rpg genre; guild wars does.

coincidence? i think not.

That title would actually go to Diablo 2.

snaek · Dec 08, 2008, 05:57 AM // 05:57

personal preferences aside
gw objectively has some of the best pvp game mechanics around

if ppl wanna shorten that to best pvp... its almost the same thing

petrorabbit · Dec 08, 2008, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Have you played WoW Arena PvP to make that claim?

FoxBat · Dec 08, 2008, 06:42 AM // 06:42

WoW Arena play is roughly analagous to Team Arenas and the current extremely crappy metagame. Well except you are ranked so the "good" teams can face each other.

WoW GvG....oh wait.

petrorabbit · Dec 08, 2008, 06:48 AM // 06:48

So how do you know WoW does not award those same things?

Before you talk about gear discreptancies, you should try familiarizing yourself with Arena Rating.

In response to your edit:

Please read the question above your post.

FoxBat · Dec 08, 2008, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Requiring you to hit a certain rating before using some powerful gear is the exact opposite of "skill>grind".

No I'm not going to grind a character to 80. On the topic of "serious" PvP comparisons I've never head of a single favorable thing for WoW, other than that you don't need 8 ragey people to enjoy "high end". This should not be surprising consdering that Arenas were something added much later in the game as they saw the potential from Guild Wars, as opposed to being something built-in to the core from day 1.

If you want to argue that WoW is much more than a spamfest and is a better game for not having strategic control points, anything comprable to a mesmer or protection prayers, be my guest, it's the first I would have heard of it.

petrorabbit · Dec 08, 2008, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Hmm, you didn't answer my question.

Is it coincidence that some of the best PvP'ers happen to have the highest arena ratings? Is it also coincidence that some of the best PvP Teams in Arena happen to have great coordination, reflex, and teamwork? Those same players also tend to play well in an offline tournament where everyone has access to the same gear.

Either way, i'm not trying to say WoW is better or GW is better. People who favor one over the other usually only play one and haven't played the other to form a fair and unbiased opinion. Usually, the claims are uneducated due to lack of experience in the other game.

I'll stop playing the WoW advocate if people form educated comparisons without ignorance clouding their judgment.

edit to your edit: Thank you for proving my point. "Real experience" is more valid than "he/she said"

moriz · Dec 08, 2008, 01:57 PM // 13:57

only if you drop the "this happens to work here, therefore it is not imbalanced", or "the best players of a game tend to be the best players in a few given instances" arguments. neither of those statements mean much of anything, since they are more or less universally true.

it's also universally true that teleportation and stealth mechanics are hard to balance in a competitive environment. teleportation will only be balanced if there are high associated costs attached to it (which until recently, is not the case for GW). similarly, stealth can only be balanced if the costs for using/maintaining stealth is very high. both of these will be difficult to achieve/maintain, because the lines between "useful, but not broken", "utterly useless", and "utterly broken" are very narrow.

petrorabbit · Dec 08, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Just because GW has not been successful at incorporating these mechanics does not mean it is true for everything. Yet, as of now, one mechanic has been successful to its game alot more than the other. The point I was making is that stealth ruining WoW pvp is more of an exaggeration since most people here do not keep up with WoW and only base their arguments on what they heard 1 or 2 years ago.

Yes, I agree, stealth and teleport mechanics are hard to balance, yet not impossible. Whether it be intuitive balance or trail and error, it is still possible to achieve. IMO, WoW's stealth mechanic does not cause as much balance issues for WoW players as much as Shadowstep causes balance issues for GW players. Either way, they are still different games, yet people are still claiming one to be superior when they won't even try the other.

GW can achieve these things if the developers really wanted to put time and effort into it. Yet, they are already putting time and effort into GW2. Who knows, maybe they've learned their lessons from GW and they will properly implement a stealth or teleport mechanic that does not cause as much issues as they have now.

FoxBat · Dec 08, 2008, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Teleporting (and stealth-until-attack) is really only problematic in GW due to the whole dynamic of pre-prots and spikes. Games where you can actually out DPS healers (cough WoW/Warhammer) it really is not a big deal, the surprise element isn't as useful. Over short distances teleport hardly matters on ranged characters, only recall/shadow of haste letting you go across the map were problematic.

Stealth only becomes an interesting competitive mechanic when you can counter it, making it interactive. FPS have line-of-sight, positional audio and moving around corners. RTS are Rock-Paper-Scissors matches on the fly so building stealth counters works there. But in PvE-RPGs like DnD it basically boils down to a build/equipwars thing where you bring a spell, item, or ability to an area to counter. For a game like GW where you can't change builds mid-match, you'd have to think of some active counter mechanic for that to be entertaining. With a different interface, firing spells or arrows in the rough area of a stealthed character to trigger an uncover might be a start.

Bobby2 · Dec 08, 2008, 06:43 PM // 18:43

@ petro

Kso, I have played WoW, and it sure as hell wasn't balanced up until I quit.

Maybe that has changed. But WoW is going for a while now. If it's going to take this long to tweak out...

I don't think game designers will take the trouble to create such a class as intended for serious PvP again. Too much of a challenge, because this is undeniably true:

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

because the lines between "useful, but not broken", "utterly useless", and "utterly broken" are very narrow

Also:

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

Who knows, maybe they've learned their lessons from GW and they will properly implement a stealth or teleport mechanic that does not cause as much issues as they have now.

Now you're just being naive.

EDIT: anyone got experience with the Witch Elf class from WAR?

petrorabbit · Dec 08, 2008, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

@ petro

Kso, I have played WoW, and it sure as hell wasn't balanced up until I quit.

Maybe that has changed. But WoW is going for a while now. If it's going to take this long to tweak out...

It not like GW is balanced either, even today. But i'm guessing it has been a really long time since you quit. I'm also talking about a stealth mechanic, not the whole game when I first posted.

Quote:

I don't think game designers will take the trouble to create such a class as intended for serious PvP again. Too much of a challenge, because this is undeniably true:

Now you're just being naive.

You're right, I am being naive. Developers not challenging themselves and learning form their mistakes? INCONCEIVABLE!!!

Bobby2 · Dec 09, 2008, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

It not like GW is balanced either, even today. But i'm guessing it has been a really long time since you quit. I'm also talking about a stealth mechanic, not the whole game when I first posted.

Yeah, I get that. And yes, it's been like a year or so since I last touched WoW.

But you'd say stealth, with WoW experience, would be 'more easily manageable' in the future in regards to balance?

Or give insight as in how to balance an entirely new mechanic (suggestions welcome, as I have none)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

You're right, I am being naive. Developers not challenging themselves and learning form their mistakes? INCONCEIVABLE!!!

Being cynic (realistic?), sorry

petrorabbit · Dec 09, 2008, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Yeah, I get that. And yes, it's been like a year or so since I last touched WoW.

But you'd say stealth, with WoW experience, would be 'more easily manageable' in the future in regards to balance?

Or give insight as in how to balance an entirely new mechanic (suggestions welcome, as I have none)?

Hmm, I think you misunderstood me. Never did I say that stealth would be easier to manage than shadowsteps, especially to GW. I responded to your comment here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Low-armor, high-damage melee class. Needs an element of surprise to be effective. So far two mechanics have been used in MMOs to achieve this:
- teleporting
- stealth

both of which have been hell on game balance.

All I did was provide an example to your sweeping generalization, that stealth has been successfully integrated into an MMO without ruining game balance. Of course, it took time and work to get it that way, which all games require to achieve something close to balance, GW included.

Do I want GW to have stealth? I wouldn't mind it, but I won't lose sleep if it doesn't. Done properly, with time and effort, either mechanic can be balanced. You can never shortcut polishing a product, only keep working on it till it gets there. Atm, ANET has their attention focused elsewhere, so the only balance GW has been getting are patches to influence the Flavor of the Month, and some ways to make PvE even more carebear friendly.

Quote:

Being cynic (realistic?), sorry

If you have no faith that ANET can learn from their mistakes and actually do something right, why do you still bother?